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John Tindall TCM Practitioner

Last updated:05August2008

Just diagnosed

Q I was diagnosed with hep C just 2 months ago and although I am still pretty bewildered by this diagnosis I am being proactive with diet, supplements, lifestyle, etc. The questions that predominate for me are: What are the most important things that people with hep C ought/ought not do regarding their health? And can Chinese medicine cure hep c? If so how?

A From my experience it is important to get a balance of exercise, rest, diet, herbal medicine, dietary supplements and acupuncture, shiatsu or reflexology. What is not useful is to panic or burn the candle at both ends or to run to every single alternative therapy there is. Finding what combination particularly suits you best and works well for you may take some perseverance. I would urge you to be patient in that process as the rewards may be well worthwhile. Concerning whether Chinese herbs can cure hepatitis ,cure is not a word I would personally use. However, considerable improvements in quality of live can be attained, in most cases reduction of liver enzymes, some clients have managed to obtain an undetectable viral load and others changed the degree of fibrous tissue in the liver. The results vary according to age, genotype and gender and the degree of damage that has already been done.

Thyroid problems

Q I also have a hyperactive thyroid, Graves Disease, I've been taking Carbimazole, prescribed by my GP, for over 18 months. I believe this medication just suppresses the overproduction of thyroid hormone and doesn't actually deal with the underlying imbalance. This may be linked to the hep C. Could you explain from your perspective the connection between hep C and thyroid imbalance.

A Certainly the question of Graves disease can be interpreted in Chinese medicine as an essential imbalance between Yin and Yang. There is a theory in Chinese medicine called the five elements- fire, earth, metal, water, wood - the liver is in the wood element and the kidneys are in the water element. The water element is said to be the mother of the wood element. The water element is said to be the root of Yin and Yang in the body. For a person with hepatitis C where the liver is compromised it seeks help from its mother, the kidney. If this help leads to the Yin energy of the kidney being depleted then the essential balance between Yin and Yang in the whole body will be affected. Therefore if there is not enough Yin to balance the Yang it will create the appearance of an excess of Yang energy. This can manifest as hyperactive thyroid. In my experience it is possible to address this imbalance to the point that western medication may no longer be required. There may be cases where Graves disease manifests as an autoimmune response quite separately to the condition of hepatitis c and this may make it difficult for any health care practitioner to give you a definitive cause for Graves disease. Irrespective of the cause it's good to find a solution that works for you.

Chinese herbs for side effects of treatment

Q If you have already started interferon/ribavirin treatment, is it safe to take Chinese herbs for the side effects. Do Chinese herbs help with side effects and might they interfere with the effectiveness of the interferon treatment?

A Certainly from my experience clients derive tremendous benefit from Chinese herbs and acupuncture. This can help them with fatigue, night sweating, thirst, nausea, diarrhea, skin rashes, headaches, flu like symptoms etc. It is essential to consult an experienced registered practitioner and to be sure of the quality of the herbal supplies. Provided careful consideration is given to all aspects of the client's case history then Chinese herbs are safe. I have not witnessed any of my clients treatment with interferon or ribavirin being lessened by the utilisation of Chinese herbs. In fact the experience of myself and my clients is quite the contrary.

Low energy

Q Whats the best treatment for low energy?

A There are many co-factors that lead to the dissipation of our general energy. So it is advisable to look within and adjust our lifestyle accordingly. As an example, many people attempt to fix their tiredness with carbohydrate binges. And it is important to keep your blood sugar levels stable rather than having massive highs and lows. And I would urge you to consult a recent book called 'The GI Diet'. Another important factor is to keep our head in a good space and in positive spirits. Finding a personal energy practice -be that yoga, tai-chi, chi gong, dancing etc - helps maintain good energy levels despite lifes difficulties. The use of nutritional supplements, Chinese herbs, acupuncture and/or shiatsu and reflexology plays a big role in the management of tiredness in Hepatitis c.

Acupuncture

Q What do you think the benefits for someone with hepatitis C are of having acupuncture treatment on its own? If you have acupuncture by itself is it important that the practitioner knows a lot about hepatitis c?

A The affects of acupuncture can be tremendously inspiring. Many clients experience improvement in energy levels, mood, sleep and joint pains. Through continuous regular use of acupuncture the function of the liver will improve. However, the amount of acupuncture required to inhibit the activity of the virus would be extremely labour intensive and cost prohibitive. Having said that this does not discount the quality of life gains to be obtained from the regular use of acupuncture. It has been my experience and many practitioners and clients that a regular treatment of ear acupuncture specifically for liver wellness is beneficial particularly whilst receiving interferon/ribavirin treatment. There are many clinics throughout the UK where this service is available. It certainly will be useful that the acupuncture practitioner has had working experience with clients with hepatitis c as there are many unique health issues that relate to hepatitis c which will be necessary to take into consideration. If your practitioner does not know much about hepatitis C it would be advisable to request them to read up about the subject.

Clearing the virus with alternative medicine

Q Over the years of treating hepatitis C patients have you known any people manage to clear it using tcm and/or other alternative medicine?

A In over 10 years practice of TCM and treating hepatitis C I have witnessed clients obtaining an undectable viral load. I am unclear as to why one person can achieve this and another cannot. In searching through all my clients case histories I am aware that those that did clear the virus use a very eclectic approach with alternative health practices to effect change in every aspect of themselves. As I primarily practice TCM I cannot answer for all alternative medicines and there may well be clients who have cleared the virus by means other than TCM

Insomnia and depression

Q Can TCM help with the insomnia and depression that seems to come with hepatitis C?

A To answer this we need to return to the 5 elements again - fire, earth, metal, water and wood. The liver is in the wood element, the heart is in the fire element. When the liver becomes hot, inflamed, and filled with toxin and the blood circulation is restricted in the liver this dramatically affects the balance in the body. So the cool, calm inner nature of the liver is lost. It becomes hot, angry and irritated. In Chinese medicine this is said to disturb the heart which is the house of the shen, the conscious thinking mind. So at night time when your body is designed to fall asleep it actually wakes up instead. In Chinese medicine the wood element time of day is between 11.00pm and 3.00am. So if the liver is hot and irritated it will be difficult to sleep until after 3.00am. It is said in Chinese medicine that the liver replenishes itself during these hours of sleep and it is said that the blood of the liver nourishes the blood of the heart. If this liver blood is deficient, the joy and passion of the heart will certainly lack its rightful glow. So to treat insomnia and depression, often considerable emphasis is given to nourishing the blood.

Low mood and brain fog

Q I changed my diet to no meat/low fat, eating only organic produce. I drink 2 litres of water a day, I dont do dairy products or wheat or lactose. I eat very well. All the same I take 20 drops of Milk Thistle 2 times a day and 20 drops of Echinacea 1 time- Bioforce- pretty good stuff. I take Wellman Vitabiotics and advanced acidophilus. Plus twice a day I go to the gym -3 times a week sauna and steam room and still after all that I feel low in myself and the brain fog is constant and insomnia is an understatement. I can live with the hep C, I just want a couple of the symptoms to go. Could I take any other herbs on top of what I'm already taking and what's a good mood booster and brain fog exterminator (I opted out of peg/interferon) I'm genotype 1a.

A Looks like you are doing a lot to help yourself. Sometimes even when we are putting all the right fuel into the system - the system needs to be re-primed in order to function properly. So in reading what you have been doing for yourself so far, may I suggest that you locate a local acupuncturist who could provide you with treatment that could re-set your system. I have met many people who spend a small fortune on multiple nutritional supplements and once their energetic system is working appropriately (re-set) this is money very well spent. Your low mood and brain fog and insomnia may well lift quickly, especially as you have already put a lot of ground work into your well being. From a Chinese medicine perspective saunas may not be beneficial if you already have a lot of heat or dryness in your system, in fact they may make you feel worse. The symptoms of heat would be: hot and sweating at night time, thirst, dry mouth, dark and strong smelling urine, hard or incomplete stools, hot irritated skin, hot inflamed joints, possibly headaches/migraines, and being prone to angry outbursts. The symptoms of dryness would be: dry eyes, dry skin, dry hair, dry mouth, constipation, dry cough, thirst, no tears. In any of these circumstances sage tea can be very beneficial.

Immune system/bacteria/anti-viral
Q
I take TCM and am wondering if it harms the good bacteria in the gut, if so, should I be taking some form of supplement? Also, I understand the gut is the first line of defence for our immune system so it's important that it's functioning well. Does TCM help support the immune system ( depends on the herbs used I suppose) there in the gut and also within the blood stream? What I'm getting at is, does TCM have antiviral properties as well as doing the job of cooling the body and balancing YIN and Yang etc? I'm wondering if the virus in my body is going wild even though I'm taking TCM?
A A major reason that chinese herbal medicine is so valuable to clients with hepatitis c is that the traditional diagnosis and classification of chinese herbs is precise. There are categories particulary focused to support the digestive system, to clear heat and toxin from the blood, to nourish the blood, to move the blood, to strenghten the chi energy and by the combined effect of all of these is how the immune system is improved. There is a specific category called fire poison herbs that has been well documented in its anti-bacterial and anti-viral functions. If a prescription is well orchestrated it will not only treat the hepatitis c but balance all other aspects of your health.

Diabetes
Q In TCM what is the explanation for the apparent link between hep C and diabetes?
A In order to answer this question adequately it is important to understand the Chinese medicine concept of the five elements. These five elements are fire, earth, metal, water and wood. The wood element is where the liver and gall bladder reside and the water element is where the kidney and bladder reside. It is said that the water element is the mother of the wood element and that the water element is the root of yin and yang in the body. As such it balances blood sugars and bodily fluids and metabolism. After many years of the liver being affected by disease it becomes hot and inflamed. This heat and inflammation destroys the yin (cool moist quality) of the liver. The liver draws on the yin nature of the kidney energy to support it and if this continues over many years imbalance in blood sugar, body fluids and metabolism will occur resulting in diabetes. Consequently appropriate diet and herbs can be used to correct this situation, the emphasis of which is to nourish yin and body fluids.

Gall Bladder
Q People with hep C also seem to have a lot of trouble with their gall bladders - me and my brother both have hep C and both of us have had to have them out. From what you said in your reply does this mean that anything that damages the liver is also likely to damage the gall bladder as they go together in Chinese medicine? What causes gall stones in Chinese medicine?
A Certainly as heat and inflammation affects the liver and as an adjacent organ the gall bladder may also be involved. As a result of the heat and inflammation the circulation of energy and body fluids and energy becomes stagnant. This causes bile salts to coagulate in the gall bladder causing stones. Acupuncture and Chinese medicine are well known to be effective in improving gall stones.

Chi Gong
Q You mentioned last time that Chi Gong was a good thing to do and I feel I would like to practice it but looking into the information on it I think it would be difficult to fit it into my daily routine. Things like you must do it no less than 2 hours after eating, don't wash or shower until half an hour after doing it or drink water before or after it etc. etc. It seems a wonderful thing to do with great benefits, so do you have any advice on fitting it into a busy daily routine please John? I also have to fit my supplements and TCM around it too.
A There certainly are many different descriptions on how and when to practice chi gong and this may depend on the particular style of chi gong. In our clinic we teach and practice hua gong in which there are many different forms some of which are used to digest your food. This style is a very practical application of chi gong in which 20 minutes once or twice a day would suffice and it can be dovetailed in and around meals and/or other aspects of your health program even to the point where you could practice the digestive chi gong after meals. May I suggest that it would be useful to start your practice and adapt it accordingly. A major aspect practicing chi gong is learning how to integrate it into your daily life so that it supports you when you most need it.

TCM on treatment
Q
I understand that people with hep C typically have too much heat and that often it's damp as well. What happens when they are on interferon and ribavirin treatment. Does that lower the heat, increase it? And have you seen people on just interferon by itself so you know what interferon does and what ribavirin does?
A Through the activity of the virus, stress, tension, pollution, drugs, alcohol and medicines the body is often left with an internal state of toxic damp heat. This may be present in the energy levels of the body causing problems with digestion or in the blood levels of the body causing lots of inflammation particularly the skin, joints and internal organs. In TCM interferon and ribavirin are viewed as being hot and toxic in nature. Consequently in taking them this adds to the overall effect. In my experience of working with clients taking these medications (interferon and ribavirin) diet, herbs and acupuncture play a significant role in supporting a persons body to cope with the treatment and thereby making best use of NHS resources.

TCM before treatment
Q Does this mean that it would be a goood idea, before starting interferon treatment, to try to get as much of the heat out as possible (with TCM say)? Will this make treatment easier? What ealse should I do? Get fitter?
A It's certainly been my experience and that of my clients that to prepare for treatment using acupuncture, herbs, diet and excercise helps the treatment program with interferon and ribavirin to be more manageable. I have not witnessed any negative interactions of the chinese herbs I've prescribed for clients with the drug therapy. Also you may find it valuable to check some of the weblogs to get further inspiration.


TCM after treatment
Q I am nearly 17 months post treatment and had a successful outcome and all my blood tests etc are "normal". Generally I feel well though perhaps still more fatigued than I did before treatment. I have always been interested in doing herbs as a way to detox my system and in particular for a liver cleanse. I understand that prescribing herbs is very individual and that you would have to see me to make an assessment but could you explain a little of how herbs work on the system, what is realistic to achieve and what the possible side effects are. I would also be interested to know if there are any potential dangers from doing herbs and if I would need to change my diet or lifestyle in any way whilst doing a course of treatment.
A Certainly a program of herbal medicine and diet would make a significant difference to your health. Essentially a program of herbs is orchestrated to ensure all the pathways of elimination are open and working properly ie bowel movements, urination, sweating and to promote circulation of blood and lymphatic fluid and clear heat from the body and inflammation in the liver. Also included is preventive work to ensure the virus is kept at bay. It is certainly realistic to achieve a very good quality of health though obviously this would depend on how you are to start with. Occasionly some herbs in their clearing process can create some loose stools or more frequent urination and they certainly are an acquired taste. I usually say they dont smell nice and they dont taste nice but they do a good job. It is essential to have a formula personally prescribed for your own needs to ensure the correct dosage and contents. In active liver disease it is essential to not further burden the liver so we always select herbs that are safe and appropriate as to choose the wrong herbs or too big a dosage would not help the liver or kidneys. Most of my clients find very simple changes in diet and lifestyle helpful. Firstly the diet, it is useful to follow food combining (keeping protein and carbohydrate separate) and to make your lunchtime meal your protein meal. This will help your digestion to be more effective, your blood sugars to be more stable and consequently your energy and mood the same. To do some form of energy practice be that tai chi, yoga or chi gong, is a very empowering method to enhance your wellbeing. In Chinese medicine the time of day between 11pm and 3am is the liver and gallbladder time of day and in order to recuperate good liver function it is essential to be asleep at this time.